Have I mentioned that 14 has been in the top ten at Audible.com for the past week or so? It's been a pretty amazing week for me.
That being said, I’m still
trying to get caught up on a few things after Ex-Communication,
so I think I’m going to let the ranty blog slide for another week or so.
The good
news for all of you is that “letting it slide” means I post another
screenwriter interview. Even if
screenwriting isn’t your thing, you might get a kick out of this one. It’s from two years ago—me talking with
actor, director, and screenwriter Sylvester “Sly” Stallone. You may have heard of him. And, yes, I was told very specifically that
he does prefer Sly. I talked with Sly
(see, now we’re on a first name basis) about his career and his then-upcoming
new movie, The Expendables.
Now, I have
to be honest. While it was cool to be
interviewing Sylvester Stallone, I wasn’t expecting much. Foolish as it sounds, I’d been sucked in by
his characters and figured I was going to be on the phone with Rocky Balboa or
John Rambo. The guy we all see parodied
on SNL and Family Guy. What
I actually got was almost an hour talking with a very smart, dedicated, and
funny screenwriter who loves Peter O’Toole movies and whose lifelong passion
project is a biopic about Edgar Allan Poe.
A few
points I’ve mentioned before. I’m the
one in bold, asking the questions. Also,
a lot of these aren’t the exact, word-for-word questions I asked (which tended
to be a bit more organic and conversational), so if the answer seems a bit off,
don’t stress out. A long line of dashes
(-----------------) means there was something there I didn’t transcribe,
probably because it was just casual discussion or something I knew I wasn’t
going to use in the final article. Any
links are entirely mine and aren’t meant to imply Mr. Stallone endorsed any of
the ideas here on the ranty blog. It’s
just me linking from something he’s said to something similar I’ve said. And by the very nature of this discussion,
there will probably be a few small spoilers in here. If you haven’t seen the first Expendables
yet, check it out. You’ll get a bit more
out of this discussion.
Material
from this interview was originally used for an article that appeared in the
May/June 2010 issue of Creative Screenwriting Magazine.
===================================
So, a few background
questions... I know you studied drama at
school. Was it your major or was it a
side thing you expanded on?
It was my major, yeah.
Did you study
screenwriting?
Well, what
happened was I wasn’t getting any parts (chuckles). I decided...
I started writing these one-act plays. There was
this group that was putting on these shows.
At the time they were called “happenings” which is kind of like stream
of conciousness, they were plays that were like Ionesco’s “Rhinoceros” or
“Rats” by Israel Horovitz. And I
thought, y’know, I’d like to try one of these one-act plays. So I started writing and performing
them. They were one-man or two-man
shows. And that was the beginning of my love for the written word.
There weren’t many
books at the time. Did you study existing scripts or just kind of wing it...?
What I did
was, believe it or not, after four years of college I got a job as an
usher. I would watch a show, for example
let’s say M*A*S*H, and I would watch
it six times a day for two months. And I
would break it down and I’d see what works and the timing and I got to get a
sense of pace. Or I’d see a movie that
wasn’t very well recieved--I remember, for example, there was a Martin Sheen
movie called No Drums, No Bugles, and
no one ever saw it. I was like, “Why is
this place empty?” So I would go home
and try to rewrite scenes in the movie that was playing. Just as an exercise.
Then one
thing led to another and I started writing about my experinces in school with
things that I knew about. It wasn’t
until I went to the New York Library and checked out a book on Edgar Allen Poe
that I finally wrote a screenplay that wasn’t solely about my experiences.
I was going to ask
you... I know you did some work on Lord’s of Flatbush...
That’s
right.
...but were there any
feature screenplays before Rocky?
Oh,
many. Many. Probably twenty, twenty-five. I look at them now and they seem kind of
quaint. And they were using the
old-fashioned format, which would be the characters name on the left margin and
to the right would be the dialogue down the side. It was pretty archaic.
Rocky got the Oscar nomination for best screenplay. Plus a bunch of wins. Was it intimidating having so much success
with your first produced screenplay?
Oh,
yeah. How do you follow that up? The idea of Rocky, it was pretty
simple but it touched people a lot more that I thought it was going to. That kind of simplicity and rhythym, I didn’t
know if I could do it again. I don’t
even know if I ever achieved it again.
Usually it was something that was kind of noticeable in the subsequent Rockys, especially 2 and in the last one, that I could fall into that rhythym which I
felt very comfortable with. Having a
protagonist that would be that verbal.
When a lot of the action comes you don’t get a chance to write dialogue.
You’re an
actor-screenwriter who wrote two major films to rekindle his career. I think you’re unique in that. Did you plan Rocky Balboa or Rambo as
“comeback” films or were they just stories you wanted to tell?
The power
of the pen (laughs). I wanted to close
out the series, and at that time I wasn’t getting much work and I thought, if I
ever get another chance, I owe a lot to these two characters because both of
them ended on a note that was unsatisfactory.
Especially with Rocky Balboa, that’s the premise. If it works it’s the perfect closure, whereas
Rocky V wasn’t. I didn’t know if it was
going to catch on. No one believed it
would. It took six years to get done on
a budget that was pretty meager. It was
quite a long shot. Put it this way-- it was a lot harder to get done than the first one
(chuckles).
Do you write all the
time? Is there always something you’re
working on, or do you wait for specific inspiration?
I try to
write a little bit each day, even if it’s not very consequential. It’s like painting. If you put a brush on the canvas a little bit
every day, you’re still in the game.
Your brain is subconciously working. ---- I always look at writing in a
pretty basic way, which would be like an athlete who hasn’t participated in an
event, say, in five or six years. Now he
has to get back in the ring and he’s very rusty and insecure. But if he had been going to the gym all that
time he would be somewhat prepared.
What first sparked
the idea that would be The Expendables?
I wanted to...
and this is a real complicated journey here... I wanted to do a kind of “men
being men” journey. It would be escapism
but there would be some profound thought going on-- in the sense of what about
our mortality? What about our
morality?--and insert that into the action film so it isn’t just about men
blowing up things.
So I
thought what was a good format? I looked
at The Dirty Dozen and well, that’s World War II. Then I was inspired by Dogs of War. Now, I realized
that my template would be a little similar, so we had to go out and purchase
the Dogs of War script because I
didn’t want to be accused of plagarizing.
Then I heard there was this other script which was, in my opinion,
uncomfortably similar to Dogs of War
written by David Callahan. I thought,
well, I knew from the past we’ll be sued if there’s anything similar. It always happens.** On every Rocky
or whatever, someone’s always had that idea first. I said, this time I’ll just go out and see
what’s out there that’s similar. So that
script was purchased. Then I wrote what
I think is an original, The Expendables,
which doesn’t use one word, one comma, one iota from either screenplay.
When was this?
About a
year and a half ago. It went
through--and this is for real, you can come over to my office and see--it went
through a hundred and forty rewrites.
I’m not talking about three or four pages, I’m talking about major
rewrites because of budget and then cast changes. For example, Forrest Whitaker was in it and he
played a CIA agent. Then I thought
that’s not going to work, so that entire screenplay had to be done over. Then Jason [Statham] came in and he talks a
certain way. Then Jet Li was brought in
and I had to create a character for him.
Then I thought,you know, it’d be great to have Mickey Rourke in. So before you know it... every time you bring
in a major character like that it would cause these concentric circles where it
just keeps going out. What startes out
as a little idea affects all 120 pages.
A hundred and forty drafts? Is that like, here’s these first twenty that
no one’s ever going to see cause this is my stuff, or was this all in
production hitting a hundred colors of revision pages?
The first
fifty or sixty drafts... and I swear I’ve never seen anything like it. We have close to two thousand pages. Typed.
It wasn’t until about three months before that we went through all the
colors twice. My secretary was pulling
her hair out. Then I had some help from
a friend of mine, Robert Kamen. Robert
came in and gave me a couple of ideas and I thought you’re right, let’s try to
be more economical. He was very helpful.
Do you like to write
other characters for specific actors?
Was Christmas always written with Jason Statham in mind? Was Gunnar always Dolph Lundgren to you?
Absolutely. If you spend a little time with them,
everyone had a rhythym to their voice and a way they feel comfortable with
dialogue. It’s almost a mathematical cadence to their speech patterns. If you can capture that, the actor feels
comfortable and you also know kind of how you can a make a sentence a little
more clever using his speech pattern.
For example, in Rocky, Burt
Young has a very unusual speech pattern.
He inverts words. Instead of
saying “You don’t like me?” he’ll reverse it,”Me you don’t like much,” which
makes it very unusual. So I would write
according to their natural speech pattern.
How often do you have
yourself in mind for the lead role while you’re writing? Do you just write and then think, Hey, I’d
like to play this part?
I do. I do (laughs). But I realized in this particular ensemble
you have to give some of your better lines away. You just have to to keep a balance, to keep
the law of nature working so one doesn’t overwhelm the other character and it’s
lopsided. That was the hardest part in Expendables, that everyone has their
moment. It has nothing to do with the
action, it’s just an insight into what makes them tick. Then when you combine that
with the action, you say, ahhh, I understand what this guy’s all about. I know his motive and what really dwells in
his heart. Rather than just muscles.
If you don’t mind me
stepping back, in general not just with The
Expendables, it seems that most of the stuff you write is for you. Do you want to write for other people? Would you be interested in writing scripts
where you had nothing to do with the movie past writing it?
Well, for
example, there was a page-one rewrite...there was a fellow, Norman Wexler, who
had written the first Saturday Night
Fever and he wrote Staying Alive. They brought me in. There were some issues with the script. The studio didn’t like it at all. It was a very, very dark journey that the
John Travolta character, Manero, was taking.
So I sat down with John and I thought let it be a bit more
optimistic. Let’s take it in this
direction. It’s about redemption and
so-on. I took the script, put it away,
and started from page one completely using John’s voice. Spending time with him, getting his rhythyms,
and really touching on subjects that as an actor it’s the same thing with a
dancer. The insecurities, the constant
awareness that the clock is running and you have a certain amount of time to
cross that goal line in your career or you’re never going to make it, so on and
so forth. I love writing for other
people. It’s much easier, actually.
Nowadays, what’s your
usual writing method? Has it changed
over the years? Are you an outline guy,
a notecard guy, do you just start scribbling on page one?
That’s
pretty much what I do. I’ll sit down and
try to find, let’s say, the first ten scenes.
And there’ll just be one word-- truck, airplane, meets girl, goes home,
abandoned apartment-- just write those, knowing that 90% of it will be
unusable. Maybe 95%. But the process has
started and then subconciously, if I’m being honest with myself, if I’ve got a
story that holds up, it starts to take a life of its own.
I’ve never
been able to write a treatment. Ever.
How long did it take
you to get a first draft?
My first
draft would maybe be two weeks. It’s
pretty quick. But I know going in that
it’s far from perfect. Some writers will
labor an extraordinary amount of time on each scene to get it right before they move on. I assume that it’s not going to be perfect
but I’ll get it the third time, the fourth time around. It’s like cutting a diamond. Cutting the facets. You’re not going to cut it perfectly the
first time. You have to keep going back and polishing. Going back and polishing.
How many drafts did
it take with The Expendables until
you got to something solid? Something you knew was good?
I would say
it took a good twenty-five before we had what I thought was a workable
film. Then the elements of budget come
into play. You have to take a situation,
a locale, that maybe had three hundred, four hundred people and you realize you
have to cut it down to two (laughs). In Rocky, the ice skating scene was meant
to be in Rockefeller Plaza in New York, where they’re ice skating and there’s three
hundred people on the ice and Christmas trees and carolling going on in the
background when Rocky takes Adrienne on her first date.
Did something similar
happen with Expendables?
Oh,
yeah. Hell, yeah. In The
Expendables we’re supposed to take on Somalian pirates in the first
scene. As you know, it’s very expensive
shooting that. I had it written where
they climb on board, they go across the deck, camera’s dollying in, so on and
so forth. That would take about five or
six days to get that all proper. And I
thought, all right, why don’t we just establish boat, next thing is cut inside
the boiler room and you see the pirates and the hostages. So we never see the Expendables arrive or
exit. They just appear.
Now, you kind of
touched on this... is it tough on set, as the writer-director, when pretty much
every actor in your film is used to being the leading man? I mean, you’ve got guys in bit parts who
normally carry tentpole films. Do you
like ad-libs from actors? Do you like
them switching stuff around?
If they
come up with something ... The format I
follow is we do it as written the first take or two. Then after that I say “Let’s tear it apart a
little bit,” and I’ll purposely start to ad-lib. Some actors are very good at it. Some aren’t.
You have to know. Mickey Rourke
will roll with it. Other actors are not
comfortable with it and you have to write them in as they’re physically
reacting to what you’re saying. They’re
looking away, they look bored, this and that, they smile. So they’re in the mix even though they’re not
verbalizing. You have to find the
strength of these stars and capitalize on them and not expect them to be
something they’re not.
The names are a
little silly in The Expendables. Harry Christmas. Hale Caeser.
Toll Road. What’s up with that?
Yep. Well, it’s Lee Christmas now. Every one of those characters is based
on... Lee Chistmas is the world’s most
famous mercenary, down in Honduras as the turn of the century. I just thought,what a great name--General Lee
Christmas. Barney Ross was a great
fighter in the ‘30s. What I was trying to come up across is every one
of these guys, they don’t have an identity.
Their real name doesn’t matter.
They live in this kind of alternate universe where they have no social
security cards, no driver’s license, nothing.
They’re fictional characters.
When Bruce Willis says ------- I
just love that when you have nicknames for characters that explain who they
are.---------Toll Road, Randy Couture, to get past him you’re going to pay a
price.
We start right at the
top with Gunnar pretty much snapping. Why did you want to start with one of the
good guys essentially going bad?
Because you
don’t expect it. You know at one time
this guy was a great warrior who, through a human frailty, a weakness, became a
drug addict. He was unpredictable. Even though we don’t belabor the fact that he
was a drug addict, you sense it with certain words. “When a guy turns Crankenstein on you, you’ve
gotta let him go.” Or another one goes
“Put a shot in speed racer’s shoulder.”
I don’t want to see him shooting up or snorting. He just has a problem. It could be pills or whatever, but he’s got
to overcome this. By the end of the film
you really embrace the guy. At least in
the final draft.
I thought it was
interesting that this isn’t just the movie title. They actually call themselves “The Expendables.” Why did you want to have this be their real
title?
Self
awareness. They realize that if they’re
gone it really doesn’t matter. They’re
in an expendable business. Every
mercenary on the back of his mind must know when he goes to a foreign land
there’s a good chance he doesn’t come back.
He’s expendable and he accepts that.
There’s a nice bit
where Tool is talking about the girl on the bridge. It isn’t just about killing bad people--it’s
about saving good ones. Where did that
whole theme come from? Was it there from
the start or did it develop through drafts?
It
developed. Tool originally had a
girlfriend who was half blind, going blind, and that was going to be Brittney
Murphy. We just didn’t have it in the
budget. Brittney Murphy was also a
wonderful singer. At the end of the
movie people were questioning why would Tool be interested in this kind of girl
when he has all these Hooter-type girls.
Then when you hear her sing you think she has real soul, she has
depth. That’s why he finally has come
around to this kind of woman. Now when
that was taken out I needed a moment when the character who seemed like the
biggest bon viant, who doesn’t give a damn, in the end really is
tortured because he didn’t do what he could’ve done to save his soul, his
morality. And he’s saying to Barney,
don’t make the same mistake. You’ve got
to do something for nothing.
No spoilers in the
article, but I’d like to ask you about the ending and maybe talk around it, if
that makes sense... In the end the good
guys win. Barney doesn’t get the girl
and decides not to quit. Gunnar doesn’t
die. It’s almost like a reset button
gets hit. Why not have more of a toll on
the team?
Right. I thought about that. This is kind of a morality play where I
wanted to see these men again. I always
wrote it hoping there would be a backup so I could really get in-depth for the
second one. I think when you’velived with people so long that to see them
die... I don’t know, it just put a
damper on the overall sense of exhultation at end of the film. That good can triumph over evil without
having to cause death. I know that’s a
completely unrealistic way to look at it, but I’d learned a lesson from First Blood. In the original First Blood, Trautman kills
Rambo. He puts a bullet in his heart and
he dies. We shot that ending. I didn’t like it and I didn’t want to do it,
but that’s the way it was written. And
then I said can we do an alternate where Rambo pours his heart out and he dies
emotionally, but he’s given a rebirth. A
second chance. When we ran the first
screening with Rambo dying, the audience was so depressed. I didn’t like the message that victory can
only be achieved by spilling the blood of one of the heroes. If we could accomplish both at the same
time--the bad guys are vanquished and the good guys prevail--I think in this
kind of film you walk out of there feeling good, rather than walking out going
“Oh, I wish Jason hadn’t died.” It puts a
damper on it. I’m not trying to make a
one-off statement. In Dogs of War everyone did die and it’s a
whole other kind of film. This is
totally escapist fair with some moral message slipped in.
After doing so many
action movies--as the writer and the star--is it tough to come up with “new”
action scenes?
Very
hard. What we did with this one was just
go back to very simple mano e mano, man vs machine. Very little CGI, and everything in the film
is do-able by a professional. Everything
here could be accomplished. Barney is
the greatest shot in the world. He’s so
fast with the pistol it’s hard to believe.
But I went on YouTube and researched the fastest shot in the world. There’s a man who gets off six shots in
point-nine-tenths of a second and hits his target. So everything in there is achievable, it’s
just so fantastic it’s hard to believe.--------------
Last questions... in
the past couple years you’ve done The
Expendables, Rocky Balboa, I’ve
heard you’re working on another new Rambo
script...
I’m not sure about that one. The last Rambo kind of tied the ribbon on the whole journey. I don’t know if coming back out could spoil the whole thing. What more can you possibly do? Really?
I’m not sure about that one. The last Rambo kind of tied the ribbon on the whole journey. I don’t know if coming back out could spoil the whole thing. What more can you possibly do? Really?
You mentioned Poe at
the start. I noticed you’ve got a Poe
project in the works on IMDb.
Yeah. I’m really worried about doing it, though,
because I’ve been talking about this since 1976.
So it’s the same
thing?
It’s the
same thing. Every five years I’ll look at it say “Boy, it’s sort of dated.” Even though it’s a period piece, the writing
styles have changed so much and the audiences way of percieving films is not
the way it was in the ‘30s, ‘40s and ‘50s.
A Lion In Winter is one of my
favorite films, but it’s all dialogue.
It’s incredible dialogue, but that school of acting has fallen by the
wayside. Now you have to think visually,
too, and that diminishes the amount of dialogue. For example, the inner workings of Poe’s mind. We now get into his subconcious and you
actually see his great gothic stories unfolding in front of you. You take a journey through his mind at
certain points in his mind and see the black cat, see the House of Usher, you
see where it came from.
Looking back
thirty-odd years... have you learned anything about screenwriting that you
really wish you’d known back when you were writing Rocky? When you sat down to
work on Poe for the first time?
I guess... I believe your first instincts, when you write with passion, are usually
the best. Quite often in multiple
rewrites you become a little too slick, if you know what I mean. You become a bit too polished and
predictable. When I was writing Rocky I
just let it go. For example, the speech
in Rocky Balboa with his son, I wrote
that while I was riding in the back seat of a car, just bouncing around. One take, one time. I was just writing from the heart rather than
trying to get the audince on my side, trying to manipulate the audience. I just wrote from my heart. So to answer your question, I think what I learned is try to get back towriting purely with your gut more than your brain.
Was there a point in
there when you kind of forgot that?
No question
about it. Rambo III became about the events around him and not the turmoil
inside of him. For example, I do a little
painting, but I’m not a photorealist. So
people will say what is that and I’ll say it’s a flower. “Well that doesn’t look like a flower.” And I’ll say no, it’s what the flower’s
thinking. It doesn’t have to be so
perfect. It’s what I think is going on
inside of the subject rather than on the exterior.
It’s all
motivation. If you know why a guy is
going to war, really understand, that you’re with him on the journey. When you know Rocky goes there, that he
realizes that he is a bum and he’s never going to win, he’s going to get killed.
But, if he can just stand up, that to him is championship. The audience is not expecting him to win, but
they’re with him on just surviving and that is a great moral victory. So that kind of thing. It isn’t just random. Why are you here? Why here and why now?
(**It’s worth pointing out that, ironically, Stallone ended up getting sued over The Expendables.
Because of this interview I was subpoenaed twice and deposed once. He won his case earlier this year.)
Wow, great post.
ReplyDeleteGreat insight on writing from a person that knows what's it like to give everything he's got when there seems to be no hope... Sly is the man...
ReplyDelete