tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1859940184293909528.post6102438234617717403..comments2023-04-28T04:20:05.766-07:00Comments on WRITER on WRITING: It’s Not THAT BadVirtual Strangerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01040333093180694172noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1859940184293909528.post-85723429504947598142018-03-19T14:52:37.382-07:002018-03-19T14:52:37.382-07:00At first, Luke's goal is to learn from Yoda, y...At first, Luke's goal is to learn from Yoda, yes, but this changes when he decides he needs to go rescue his friends. He abandons one goal for what he feels is a more important one. His friends end up free (arguably because he distracted Vader). Goal achieved (at a cost).<br /><br />Han may briefly mention his life of luxury, but he clearly states his goal in this movie right up front--to get Leia back to the fleet after the Hoth attack. That's their entire plot thread. Leia ends up back with the fleet. Goal achieved (again, at a cost).<br /><br />Again, the heroes always win. ESB is jarring because our heroes pay a steep price for that victory, which hadn't happened before.Virtual Strangerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01040333093180694172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1859940184293909528.post-34065686465324635602018-03-16T21:40:09.231-07:002018-03-16T21:40:09.231-07:00They're successful in Jedi, and you could argu...They're successful in Jedi, and you could argue that the seeds for that success are sewn in Empire.<br /><br />I think you could argue that the goals for Empire were for Luke to learn from Yoda the skills needed to defeat Vader, and for Han to get to the life of luxury that his reward from the previous movie will now buy. (The other protagonists are essentially just passengers in Empire, at least as far as the goals go). So Luke ends up minus a hand (in other words, a set back, though it could possibly be argued that his new telekinetic abilities offset this to some degree - at best a partial win, though), while Han ends up broke and frozen (difficult to argue Han didn't utterly fail here).<br /><br />Note that I'm not knocking Empire - it's by far my favourite Star Wars movie - just noting that it is, in many ways, a "villains win" movie. Which is fine as the middle part of a trilogy, but the only reason (I would argue) that Empire's ending works is because you know the story isn't over; if, say, Jedi had been cancelled, then the series as a whole would have ended in a quite disappointing manner.<br /><br />Of course it all comes down to what you regard as victory, as you note in the above link, but my main point was that if you regard a trilogy or other series (as opposed to sequels), it might be OK for the heroes not to win in all of the middle books as long as they win in the end.GAZZAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15873358868025209180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1859940184293909528.post-57019227114085208222018-03-16T18:39:19.967-07:002018-03-16T18:39:19.967-07:00Well, "ultimately successful" is winning...Well, "ultimately successful" is winning, isn't it? Don't confuse "paying a high price for winning" with "not winning." I mean, what goals go our heroes not achieve in <i>ESB</i>...?<br /><br />I did a post about winning a few years back. It's linked to in the above rant but <a href="http://thoth-amon.blogspot.com/2012/12/i-win-i-always-win.html" rel="nofollow">here it is again</a>... :)Virtual Strangerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01040333093180694172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1859940184293909528.post-40879243792274184932018-03-15T18:57:01.946-07:002018-03-15T18:57:01.946-07:00This is a good reason why I think a lot of people ...This is a good reason why I think a lot of people struggle with The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. The protagonist does something so utterly awful very early in the series that there is really no coming back from that - even Stephen Donaldson appears to have recognised this by essentially changing the protagonist to a different character for the latest series. (And this is not casting any aspersions on his talents as a writer; The Gap series is a favourite of mine, and the Mirror of her Dreams duology is pretty good too).<br /><br />Do the heroes need to win (at whatever level) in every middle book of a series, or is it OK if they are merely ultimately successful? I'm just curious because many (myself included) would argue for Empire as the best of the Star Wars movies, and yet the heroes largely fail at their goals. Most zombie movies do not end happily (though obviously if you ever get the Ex- series adapted that will change!)GAZZAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15873358868025209180noreply@blogger.com